Virus Hybrid Foil

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spiralbevel
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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil
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spiralbevel
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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil

Happy New Year!
My appreciation to windsurfers from Atlanta for help with fin-foil testing.
We have had a few good days on Canadian Hole in NC to record side-by-side comparison. Out equipment: AHD 100 liters, 5m sail, 160 lbs sailor (fist year in windsurfing). Tested 2017 Fly-Fin from frpgear.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWCqOQDa-d8&t=301s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb2te6z6RrI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsiBjzzem0c
and more videos on youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4QpeSiatYtSYG4_tP7V7cg/videos?disable_polymer=1

Fin-foil has obvious advantage at wind speed when all others are just about to get on planning. At wind above 15 knots other boards are faster if operated by an experienced sailor. At stronger wind the foil-fin makes inexperienced sailor go faster compare to a similar inexperienced sailor with a regular fin. Experienced sailors seem to be able to go faster just because of the skill. They often have better equipment. The current conclusion is: under 15 knots an inexperienced sailor with a fin-foil has a significant advantage compare to experienced sailors with better equipment. The experienced sailor do not even go to windsurf under 15 knots because they cannot return back if they cannot get on planning. When wind dropped below 15 the only one windsurfer with a fin-foil was on water planning fast while all the others have been watching from the parking lot and waiting for wind.
The other good result is to confirm that the fin-foil lifts the whole board up, not just the behind of the board. Indeed you need to step back a little as you do at higher speed. The foot straps need to be moved back for 1"inch or so. But it depends on a board. The long 160 liter board was going too flat so you needed to step more to the back. The short 100 liter AHD did not need any adjustments. However, we need to say that our sailor has never sailed with a regular fin. This means that he has gotten used to the fin-foil and feels uncomfortable with a regular fin. I would assume that if you have been using a regular fin for 20 years you will feel uncomfortable with a hydrofoiling fin.The reason why our inexperienced sailor never used a regular fin is because he disliked the regular fin right after he used the fin-foil. It was because the fin-foil makes it easier to learn windsurfing - you get more support.
Another interesting discovery was ground effect - increase of lift when the foil gets close to the bottom. Practically, if you use the foil in shallow water the foil generates more lift with less drag. The distance from the foil to the bottom needs to be less than the wingspan. You can go over shallow spots and the ground effect will lift you up and will add speed. On Canadian hole our sailor started at about 30 feet from the shore line and others had to go our for 100 feet. This is probably why our beginner likes the fin-foil because it make the beach start easy.

It is now 17 degrees. We did the last test at 32F but our beginner sailor complained on his face freezing. Need to wait for min 40F ambient. We are getting a better sail 5.1m Niel Pride racing to get more accurate side-by-side comparison with usual participants at Canadian Hole at stronger wind. Will try 77 liter board so the foil will compensate the lift. It seems to be impossible to design the combination of foil+board to go faster at every wind conditions. If it goes better at <15 knots it is not as fast at >15. For wind speed over 15 it needs a smaller foil if the same board is used. I noticed many sailors have different boards for different wind conditions. They use bigger boards at lighter wind. It should be the same with foils. Larger foils for lighter wind. In order to do a correct comparison we need to compare a smaller board with a foil-fin against a larger board with a regular fin. The foil will compensate for low liters. We will see how it goes with 77 liters + fin-foil.

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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil

Any feedback from ‘experienced’ sailors? All I have seen are videos from the same windsurfer with only a year or so of experience. There are so many variables that account for the windsurfing experience - board volume/size/width, sail size, sailor weight, etc... I would like to hear some feedback from sailors using the same gear, but swapping back and forth on the different fin types. I love that you are trying some new ideas with fin designs, but us experienced need to hear some feedback from other experienced sailors before we take notice.

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webguy
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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil
nitrojiber wrote:

Any feedback from ‘experienced’ sailors? All I have seen are videos from the same windsurfer with only a year or so of experience. There are so many variables that account for the windsurfing experience - board volume/size/width, sail size, sailor weight, etc... I would like to hear some feedback from sailors using the same gear, but swapping back and forth on the different fin types. I love that you are trying some new ideas with fin designs, but us experienced need to hear some feedback from other experienced sailors before we take notice.

Word is the fin is small - versions on ebay are only 30cm. I applaud the inventors for working on new ideas but I have significant concerns about the basic assumptions underlying the design and some of the comments above and on youtube.

When the youtube video can't differentiate an Ezzy freerace and wave sail, I'm concerned that the tester and test rider may not have enough experience to truly understand the fin's performance vis-a-vis modern equipment.

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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil
webguy wrote:

When the youtube video can't differentiate an Ezzy freerace and wave sail, I'm concerned that the tester and test rider may not have enough experience to truly understand the fin's performance vis-a-vis modern equipment.

Exactly! I watched some of the videos and came away with - "These guys really don't have enough experience/knowledge to provide any meaningful insight when comparing traditional vs the wing fin". These mistakes don't instantly discredit the fin concept, but if they can't correctly differentiate a wave vs a race sail, I am going to be skeptical.

From another video:

The commentary again just shows a lack of windsurfing knowledge. For all I know, the windsurfer with 20 years of experience is 75lb heavier, riding an 84L quad fin.

And I just got finished reading through their website. Plow through this snippet...

Quote:
The improvements invented by FRPGEAR’s hydrofoil Fly-Fins have caused the advanced opportunity of making yourself plane at the lightest wind conditions compared to any other windsurfing equipment. The large companies have extracted money ruthlessly without supporting their product with advantages as FRPGEAR does. Those large companies include jp, fanatic, starboard, and every other one in the windsurfing market. Their technique to ruthlessly make you buy their costly product is to brainwash their customers with propaganda. Their propaganda started when they made every windsurfer buy their narrow boards as when the sport came to being. They had to make more money from windsurfing customers by starting a propaganda mission of brainwashing their customers to buy costly super light wind, wide boards at $2000. The difference to plane earlier between a $2000 board, and the cheap, old boards was practically nothing. The difference between the old, cheap boards and the new wide costly boards is the money that those companies are extracting from windsurfing customers by brainwashing them on their ultra exaggerated benefits. The disadvantages of costly traditional hydrofoils, costly boards, costly traditional fins, and all the rest of the equipment from those tricky companies are that their new equipment that those companies keep selling by propaganda is impractical. The wide boards and traditional hydrofoils are more disadvantageous for travel than their propaganda of how their wide costly boards plane the earliest on the market. The buyer of those other companies’ disadvantageous products compared to FRPGEAR’s practical cost-effective product is shameful. The shameful victim of those disadvantageous products from jp, fanatic, starboard, and all the rest of them is left in despair to use the costly equipment with humiliation because of the uneconomical use of money that was made to expect to windsurf according to propaganda from those tricky companies.

Heck, I would love to try one of these fins out. Randy - did you ever get to try it out???

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webguy
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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil

You'll have to ask Randy. I do know that he's enjoyed having his Formula Jr. back.

Thanks for quoting the blurb. Says so much that the author may not have realized.

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spiralbevel
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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil
nitrojiber wrote:

Any feedback from ‘experienced’ sailors?

My experienced customers from Spain just contacted me today asking for an invoice. Apparently, Spanish custom hold my fins until you come and get them. I did not know that and the customers in Spain did not know. I sipped to Spain in October. Customers from UK, Poland, Russia, Norway, NewYork, Michigan, are probably waiting for ice to melt. Sold several part to TX, OR, WA, NC, VA but no comments yet. The good thing nobody claimed 100% refund I promised if they do not like it. As an experienced business owner I call this a good result for a startup business. My experience in windsurfing started in 1978 when I built 3 windsurfers, booms and sails all by myself. I am a smaller guy on this old picture: http://frpgear.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/windsurfer.336175758_std.jpg TheVirus show a video with an experienced sailor: 3 seconds of actual windsurfer + 30 minutes of talking. The sailor does not say about any advantages and seems to be nice to the inventors. Read comments on thevirus Facebook - many comments are asking why they do not have more videos. This is why we have over 20 videos. If we have been able to save 20 videos showing advantage so thevirus should be able to do the same since they started about a year earlier than us. Our 20 videos taken within 2 months prove that it is easy to show the advantage. Thevirus is probably having a problem to come up with an advantage video. It is not easy to take an advantage video. You need to have somebody on water to compare. I think we did a good work with the videos -we have several side-by-side with other sailors. I have offered fly-fin to these sailor at Canadian hole but they were not interested. It seems like the windsurfers are more individualist today - not very interested to communicate. It was different in 1978 when I started to windsurf. Or, it may be because I spent to much time in SoCal. So, we have established on the videos that an inexperienced sailor +Fly-Fin goes faster compare to an experienced sailor + regular fin. This covers my market area of inexperienced sailors - the largest portion of the market. I agree that an experienced sailor would need an opinion from another experienced sailor. I am working on this with the US windsurfing association and they have offered to come to Miami for me to race against them. I am trying to make them race against themselves but with their best fin and my fly-fin for more accurate comparison. I think the progress is going well. We had the first prototype in July and already sale more than we can make. The experienced test is not very urgent because we do not need the customer demand to explode because production is not capable to satisfy yet.
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spiralbevel
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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil
nitrojiber wrote:
webguy wrote:

And I just got finished reading through their website. Plow through this snippet...

I already told to the principal of my son's high school to work on his writing. Education was much better when I was in HS in 1978.

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spiralbevel
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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil
nitrojiber wrote:

When the youtube video can't differentiate an Ezzy freerace and wave sail, I'm concerned that the tester and test rider may not have enough experience to truly understand the fin's performance vis-a-vis modern equipment.

We have very similar EZZY 6.5 sail. The drama guy on the video has 6.1 EZZY. Our test rider has 5.1 MAUI wave. The Drama guy is as tall as my son and the same fit. My son is wearing a sweat suit under 3mm wet suit for better insulation + the safety west. The Drama guy is probably lighter weight. I did not understand your comment about the sails. The point of the video is to show that even with a smaller wave sale you can go faster compare to a larger Ezzy sail. Wave sail is less aerodynamically efficient compare to the Ezzy sail. Do you mean the EZZY sail has more weight? may be a little more but the drama guy has 100% carbon mast and carbon boom and we have 40% carbon mast and aluminum boom. The drama guy has a larger board. He specifically changed the board for lighter wind and he was on planning very well at 15 knots until wind died to 8 and he could not return back home so he had to walk about a mile.You can see the wind chart on the video. Drama guy took the best board for light wind out of his van so he had the best arrangements for light wind.Our test sailor did not change anything and just kept planning nice and smooth without any experience and without understanding of the modern equipment. At the end of the video you can see drama guy is talking to a Canadian guy while looking at our test sailor. They are saying: "That inexperienced sailor do not truly understand the modern equipment." and you can see how they are unsatisfied about the inexperienced sailor not truly understanding the modern equipment. This is why I called it a windsurfing drama. Yes 3
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spiralbevel
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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil

What I still do not understand is why Randy did not notice improvement what we noticed well all the time. I gave Randy an old prototype that was not the best but we noticed improvements on it. Randy did good work with videos. From the videos I do not understand why the only back of the board lifts up. Both our board: 160 slalom and 100L AMD come up entirely: nose and the back. We have had a problem in the very beginning the only back of the board came up on speed but we have fixed it easy by adjusting position. Just step back a little. Now when out test sailor has more experience he can bring the board completely out of water and balance a little distance just on the foil. Very good skill improvement in first year of windsurfing. I started to windsurf in 1978 and I am still not that good. I think Randy did not have enough time to get used to the fly-fin. If you use a regular fin for 20 years and then you try hydrofoil you need some time to get used to the foiling. Our beginner test runner has never used a regular fin. When he started to windsurf he alternated between the regular fin and the fly-fin. He like fly-fin more because it was much easier to learn windsurfing. It was more fun to learn because with fly-fin you are on planning all the time. Planning is the most enjoyable part of windsurfing. If you start learning windsurfing with a regular fin you will start getting on planning after a year or more and some people never get on planning. Most young beginners go for kite boarding because you start planning right away -no need to learn. many people try windsurfing and they give up because they never get on planning.
I think experienced sailor refused to try my fly-fin because they know that they would not look good on the foil. They probably assume that they will look funny because they do not have experience with foiling. I noticed that windsurfers in OBX, NC are very concerned about how they look. Perhaps they would love to try our fly-fin but they would do it when nobody is watching.
If to go back to the experience, I think, we have established that our test sailor has the world most experience with fly-fin. Our test rider is the subject matter expert in fly-fins. Considering how many fly-fins we have sold and when it is a safe bet to say that there are other fly-fin experts around the world but not so experienced yer compare to the one we used.
Demanding a review from an experienced windsurfer about a specific area of wind foiling is like asking a hot balloon pilot to review a new airplane.
I will email a usps label to Randy to ship the test foil back to us so we can double test by the world top expert in fin-foiling.

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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil
spiralbevel wrote:
nitrojiber wrote:

When the youtube video can't differentiate an Ezzy freerace and wave sail, I'm concerned that the tester and test rider may not have enough experience to truly understand the fin's performance vis-a-vis modern equipment.

We have very similar EZZY 6.5 sail. The drama guy on the video has 6.1 EZZY. Our test rider has 5.1 MAUI wave. The Drama guy is as tall as my son and the same fit. My son is wearing a sweat suit under 3mm wet suit for better insulation + the safety west. The Drama guy is probably lighter weight. I did not understand your comment about the sails. The point of the video is to show that even with a smaller wave sale you can go faster compare to a larger Ezzy sail. Wave sail is less aerodynamically efficient compare to the Ezzy sail. Do you mean the EZZY sail has more weight? may be a little more but the drama guy has 100% carbon mast and carbon boom and we have 40% carbon mast and aluminum boom. The drama guy has a larger board. He specifically changed the board for lighter wind and he was on planning very well at 15 knots until wind died to 8 and he could not return back home so he had to walk about a mile.You can see the wind chart on the video. Drama guy took the best board for light wind out of his van so he had the best arrangements for light wind.Our test sailor did not change anything and just kept planning nice and smooth without any experience and without understanding of the modern equipment. At the end of the video you can see drama guy is talking to a Canadian guy while looking at our test sailor. They are saying: "That inexperienced sailor do not truly understand the modern equipment." and you can see how they are unsatisfied about the inexperienced sailor not truly understanding the modern equipment. This is why I called it a windsurfing drama. Yes 3

The video describes the sail as an Ezzy race sail. It's not. And, sails like yours are designed to be very powerful for their size. As nitrojiber said, we don't know what size board he was on, what fin he was using, how his sail was rigged. He had a bad day and you, fortunately had a good one. This is an interesting story, an anecdote. It, alone, isn't a valid comparison of one fin vs another. GPS tracks, neutral and impartial testers and competition results are more objective measures.

With respect to the quote from the website: If the sales pitch for your product consists of alleging that your competitors are "brainwashing" and using "propaganda", that leaves a bad taste.

Lastly, from a previous comment:

Quote:
The experienced sailor do not even go to windsurf under 15 knots because they cannot return back if they cannot get on planning. When wind dropped below 15 the only one windsurfer with a fin-foil was on water planning fast while all the others have been watching from the parking lot and waiting for wind.

Umm... no. Not even close. I don't even know where to begin with this one so I won't other than you'll find a visit to Miami very illuminating and educational.

Again, good luck in your endeavors.

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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil
spiralbevel wrote:
I think experienced sailor refused to try my fly-fin because they know that they would not look good on the foil. They probably assume that they will look funny because they do not have experience with foiling. I noticed that windsurfers in OBX, NC are very concerned about how they look. Perhaps they would love to try our fly-fin but they would do it when nobody is watching. If to go back to the experience, I think, we have established that our test sailor has the world most experience with fly-fin. Our test rider is the subject matter expert in fly-fins. Considering how many fly-fins we have sold and when it is a safe bet to say that there are other fly-fin experts around the world but not so experienced yer compare to the one we used. Demanding a review from an experienced windsurfer about a specific area of wind foiling is like asking a hot balloon pilot to review a new airplane.

Scratch one-s head Goodness, you have a serious messaging problem. I spent a lot of time sailing Canadian Hole last year, and the sailors I ran into were as friendly, good-natured and curious about gear as any group I have ever been around (windsurfers in general are way less concerned image than most sports). If you are getting resistance to your fly-fin, maybe there is a problem with the messenger?

And the whole analogy about "asking a hot balloon pilot to review a new airplane" - this is so laughably wrong. This is a quote I lifted directly from your web-site touting the advantage of your fin:

Quote:
Surf the same way you did before but better. No need to learn a new sport. This hydrofoil Fly-Fin improves all your windsurfing techniques. It is like going from tube TV to HD TV—same thing but more pleasure.

If there is truly an advantage to the fly-fin, an experienced windsurfer will be the most qualified to identify those advantages.

Good luck, and I do really look forward to hearing what others sailors have to say about your fin.

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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil

1. This is an interesting point to learn. So you say that you can rig my 5.1 wave Maui sail the way so it will deliver more propulsion compare to 6.1 Ezzy Racing sail. Would you share any specifics how it can be done?
2. You are saying that the drama guy had the board too small for 8 knots wind. Can you suggest any board in the world that can get on plane at 8 knots under 6.1 Ezzy Racing sail with any fin? Corrent answer is: "Indeed it is possible with Fly-Fin as we can see on the drama video"
3. So you suggest that if the drama guy had a bigger board he would be on planning with my test rider. Here is another windsurfing drama video showing exactly your scenario:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBhDoCUkOnA
and another windsurfing drama showing the similar situation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7mQ_D8jYgo
You could argue that one random sailor has an incorrect board and bad rig. How would you explain about three sailors have the same slow moving issue. But I agree with you that my test rider is using the same wave Maui sail on all three videos. And you will explain to the forum how to rig Maui wave to become so powerful.
If to talk more pragmatic about the argument this conversation is beneficial for me because I have an opportunity to promote my product that most of the customers will consider to be very good based on videos. There is always a small portion of customers that demand scientific instrumentation data like GPS and such. From business prospective these customer cost too much. They buy very little but they take too much of your time. Based on this conversation I think my promotional videos filter these customers out, which will save my value added time for the good of windsurfing.

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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil

New 2018 Fly-Fin model is out on frpgear.com
I will appreciate any comments.

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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil
nitrojiber wrote:
The commentary again just shows a lack of windsurfing knowledge. For all I know, the windsurfer with 20 years of experience is 75lb heavier, riding an 84L quad fin.
We are talking about this video at video timing 1:18 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWCqOQDa-d8 Please explain how is it possible for a 75lb overweight sailor to do a beach start on 84L the way so 84L does not sink? Please explain why 84L board appears bigger on this video in comparison to the winning 100L? Sorry for getting into little specifics. But this is way we produce the fastest windsurfing fins. Little specifics are very important in the science of hydrodynamics.
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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil
webguy wrote:
The video describes the sail as an Ezzy race sail. It's not. And, sails like yours are designed to be very powerful for their size. As nitrojiber said, we don't know what size board he was on, what fin he was using, how his sail was rigged. He had a bad day
An experienced sailor would notice that fly-fin windsurfer has poor rigged sail and the drama windsurfer has well rigged sail. On 1:18-1:30 of the video an experienced drama sailor would notice correctly rigged sail for light wind. I think even inexperienced sailor can see good rigging on HD video close image. On 2:11, 2:18-2:30, 2:45 and 2:53 an experienced sail will see that the winner's sail is too flat for such of light wind. You can see two sails side by side. The winner is too flat and the drama is perfect. The reason why the wave sail is too flat is because wind was 40 knots an hr ago. Because the wave sail uses fly-fin he did not need to rerig his sail because he can windsurf with poor rigged sail thanks to his fly-fin. As you can see if we apply some sailing experience we can derive much of specifics out of a YouTube video without scientific instrumentation. If the drama guy had an incorrect sail tension he could adjust it and sail back home instead of walking. Because he walked back instead of sailing we conclude that it wan not enough wind for Ezzy sail to bring the sailor back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWCqOQDa-d8
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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil

Because the points that "nitrojiber" makes turned to be propaganda I suspect that "nitrojiber" is one of these customers who asked me to sale fly-fin without waiting in line and at low cost. Or he may lost it on Ebay auction. We have just started to offer fly-fins for sale and we already have several customers attempting to get a free sample while customers that paid are waiting for delivery. For example, a person known on internet as average windsurfing Joe even contacted my wife demanding fly-fin to be shipped to NY for a total price of $100 to get it delivered before Christmas. My wife actually asked me to help Joe after she looked at his facebook profile and we had an argument within our family because of Joe. I do not know how he found my wife's contact. Joe did not get fly-fin for Christmas but he compensated by a negative comment about fly-fin on his blog with a reference on his source who does not have fly-fin. Another person from Taxes asked for a free fly-fin because he was a captain.
As I already published the best way to try fly-fin is to buy it as everybody else. Try it out and return it for 100% refund. This way you only pay shipping cost.When we receive fly-fin back (new or used or broken) we will refund 100% purchasing price. This significantly saves time on processing orders. BTW, our existing customers get 50% discount if they buy from us again.

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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil
spiralbevel wrote:

Because the points that "nitrojiber" makes turned to be propaganda I suspect that "nitrojiber" is one of these customers who asked me to sale fly-fin without waiting in line and at low cost. Or he may lost it on Ebay auction.

Nope. I am just a windsurfer with 25 years experience who is genuinely interested in fin technology and someone who buys a lot of fins - you know like, a potential CUSTOMER. But now that I know you are an incoherent lying moron, I will make sure every windsurfer I ever come in contact knows what a dick you are.

Also, my name is Chris Campbell. I live in Augusta, GA. I spend a lot of time sailing at the Canadian Hole. Here is a picture of me at the Hole (on the left with long hair)

If you ever see me, please stop me to say 'hi'. I am working on a new book titled "Being the World's Worst Salesman - A Guide to Alienating Customers". I would love to interview you. You would be a goldmine of material.

I wish you good luck (again). Well, not really. I could care less....

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Re: Virus Hybrid Foil
spiralbevel wrote:

1. This is an interesting point to learn. So you say that you can rig my 5.1 wave Maui sail the way so it will deliver more propulsion compare to 6.1 Ezzy Racing sail. Would you share any specifics how it can be done?

(Bold mine). Yes, through proper use of outhaul and downhaul. Plus comments to nitrojiber. Folks, I think we are done here. Thread locked. Everyone go home. Good luck, Spiralbevel. Take a trip to Miami, as I suggested. You may find it helpful to see what others are doing in light wind windsurfing which seems to be your target application.

PS - for someone looking to foil fully on the cheap - look elsewhere. While Spiralbevel is working on an interesting approach for a conventional fin, simply using a single wing aft of the footstraps won't work.

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