To those who have concern about the future of our sport and especially those who feel that meter wide shortboards and 10 meter sails are the answer, I would suggest that the sport peaked in popularity in the mid 80s, when most of the available equipment was quite primitive and low performance by today's standards. It seems to me that the advent of higher performance gear, which was absolutely a good thing, engendered a narrowing of our vision about the sport, to the detriment of it's general popularity. The operative message here, reduced to it's baldest, if you're not going real fast, you're not having fun. If you are a windsurfer and this is your attitude, I 'm not here to change your mind, OK? I'm just saying that this attitude could maybe be a little bit limited, and to the extent that we promote this and color the experience of would-be windsurfers, we may not be doing them or the sport any favors. Of course we all think out of our personal experience. Maybe your experience as beginning and intermediate windsurfing was not that pleasant or rewarding, but more of a means to an end. For myself, the first time I stood on a board, sailed ten yards and fell in, I was hooked long before I ever had an inkling about planing. I love going fast and all the things that you can do with that, but am very grateful that I still have the capacity to experience some of the pure pleasures of simply sailing.
I agree, I think. In fact, you're preaching to the choir.
I got interested in windsurfing when I was on vacation at Hilton Head in 1996. I saw a couple of guys just sailing along on the ocean in front of our beach and thought it looked really cool. I took lessons shortly thereafter. And got hooked. The more times I fell in the more I want to do it.
As for 10 meter sails and so on, it just depends on what you like. I sailed my 12 foot long longboard and thought it was great with an 8.5 meter sail. I don't think in comparison a new 100 cm wide but less than 9 foot long board is any more "extreme" than my old longboard. In fact, its easier to move it around. In any case, I was usually the only one out sailing it.
I think you are right also about the go fast mindset being too prevalent. Because of it, people don't want to sail in lighter winds. So we all go the lake when its cold and nasty and no one ever sees us anymore. A few weeks back I went to Old 41 and when sailing back in I heard a small kid say - "Wow -that's cool - I want to learn to windsurf". I don't think he would have cared that I was on a long or wide board with a big or small sail. In fact, frequnetly when I go out in the warm weather months people come up to me and ask if its hard to learn, or if its fun. Many times they have asked me how much the boards costs and where to get one. These are all signs of interest in the sport that are lost when there's now one there to see. So sail big or small, new or old, long and skinny or wide short, but go out in the warm weather, have some fun and attract some new sailors!! It all good.
Randy
What happens in a black hole stays in a black hole.
Chris, you remind me of the moment I was drawn to windsurfing. I saw two guys slowly sailing across the lake at Galt's Ferry on a crisp early fall day. There was so little wind it looked like it would be difficult but fun. I eventually did learn at the Duck Pond in Fairhope on Mobile Bay with an intermediate board and a rig that weighed a ton. But I could simply stand up when I fell off because of the shallow water. Even so my knees had a tough time. Some are drawn to the sailing side of windsurfing and some to planing and speed. Randy is right about no one seeing us in the winter. Wide boards and light rigs are wonderful and a definite advantage for learning in our deep water. If you can't afford them, Gene has a Superlight II for sale. That was the ultimate teaching board when I learned in '98.
Linda
So Linda, is that my old board you are selling? It was fun for sure.
Randy
What happens in a black hole stays in a black hole.
Randy, I could never part with that Superlight II, you know that. I thought Gene had one listed for sale, but I just checked and don't see it.
linda
Okay, as an owner of a wide board and 10+ meter sail, I'll bite.
Frankly, this sounds like a bunch of old F@rts sitting around and telling stories of how much better it was in the old days. No offense intended because I know and like all of you. But really, this is starting to sound like what I almost found myself saying to my son last summer when he didn't want to go out one day at Hatteras because it wasn't windy enough.
"When I was young, all we had were 7.5s and we were happy. We didn't need these modern rigs to have a good time. We'd lash some Dacron to a fuzzy fiberglass mast and a stinkin' tie on boom..." Well, you get the idea.
Chris's nostalgiac waxing sounds good but ignores some things.
1) All sports have a life cycle. I remember in the 70s when you couldn't find an tennis court. We'd play late at night just to get some time they were so crowded. Now, those courts sport weeds. Mtn. biking was the big thing 10 yrs ago. Road biking was dead. Now, Lance is the man, the Tour de GA was great and the pro mtn bikers are racing for spare tubes instead of new cars- mtn biking as a pro sport has imploded worse than windsurfing. Both sports - tennis and mtn biking- when through the boom and bust without having 10m sails to blame.
2) If it was so good in the old days, why did all those folks quit? Yes, really, they quit. If you don't see people out on a light air day it's because they've all chosen to do something else. Don't blame the industry, don't blame Formula boards, don't blame the magazines. People vote with their feet. If it was all so dadgum fun, why aren't they still out doing it?
3) All that old stuff was a pain to teach folks on. Was the industry remiss in not developing better teaching boards sooner? Maybe. But now they have them and there are some who dismiss them as fads. I personally enjoyed watching an 11 yr old sail around with his 8 yr old sister on the nose of one today in 6 mph of wind. That would have been a heck of a lot harder- if not impossible- on the old stuff. Put a 70 cm fin on that same board and I can have a ball from sails 6.5 to 10+. Later I sat on the front of that board as the 8 yr old sailed me around and didn't even have to think about doing the hula dance of balance.
4) I have maybe 20-40 days a year to windsurf. I gotta make a choice. Windsurfing, if you have a family, often means something else gets put on hold. To some that sounds like family life is a ball and chain. Not at all. But the reality is that we don't have time enough to do all we need/want. So in those limited days, I have to make a choice of what kind of windsurfing I want to do. Paint all the pretty pictures you want of drifting around on a lake. Personally, those days I go to the Silver Comet Trail with my family and ride bikes. If I'm going to use one of my windsurfing chits, it's going to be on a nice breezy day.
5) All this big stuff means we get to show the world the side of the sport they rarely see. Last Sunday, no whitecaps and I'm showing Sunrise Cove why my funny-looking surfboard has such a ridiculous fin. The cat sailor who marveled at my big sail suddenly appreciated it as he barely had enough wind to put someone on the wire and I was in the footstraps. (You might as well ask him why he has a cat and not a keelboat, too. He was on the beach, just like us, when the wind faded early in the day.)
6) So, it looks pretty on the water when a bunch of folks are drifting around. Okay, who volunteers for drifting duty. Anyone, anyone? Chris is the first to drive to FL to catch a weather front. Randy has memorized the phone number of every airport windtalker in GA. I'll admit to my shortcomings as well. Quit being in denial; most of us are wind junkies. We all talk a good game about the spiritual joy of light air sailing but if the models show 14 knots on a Thursday morning and we are ditching obligations left and right to be there. We don't do that for a 3 knot forecast, do we? If I counted all the postings on "Who's going today" I'd see some familiar names keep cropping up and not a one of those would say, "looks like it's going to be a nice 2-5 day, I'm blowing off a client and meeting you guys and gals at Galts."
The sport, like most sports, went through a faddish boom and bust. It happens. Get over it. It happened to Hobie 16s, mtn bikes, Razor scooters, hula hoops, Putt-putt and more. Remember the professional Putt-Putt tour? it was televised when I was young, I kid you not. Sometimes, I start to get warm-hearted over my old VW van. Then I snap out of it and remember that my Plymouth minivan isn't a death trap, has 3 times the power, can heat it's occupants without carbon monoxide poisoning, gets 50% better gas mileage and doesn't use the driver's legs as a front bumper. Sure, I have good memories of the old VW but, in the harsh light of day, I wouldn't get within 50 ft of one.
That the world freestyle champion is 19 yrs old tells you the sport is not dead. Just the opposite. The youth are re-inventing it to what is relevant to them. Windsurfing lives for the young but maybe not in the form we enjoyed in the past. If you are going to continue this thread, seriously consider renaming it, "They don't make music like they used to. Whatever happened to (fill in the blank)."
Again, my comments come with the utmost respect for those who express differing views.
What are you talking about. I see where someone is going to Van Pugh today and it's only blowing 2 to 5.
Have you ever tried playing tag out there in light winds?
Flame on Webguy!!
Actually, the professional putt putt tour was the only form of golf I ever liked to watch on tv. Ah, the memories. I'd bet the putt-putt tour could make a comeback if they could get Tiger Woods and Michel Wie to play. Maybe they could tear down a few holes at Augusta and make a world class putt-putt course. Complete with all the props. In my view a gaudy putt-putt course would be a big improvement for the place, even though the stuff shirts like Hootie (imagine being a member of a club run by a guy named hootie) probably would not like it.
Also, my advice about going out in warm winds was only for those concerned about the sport dying out who actually want to do something about it, of which I can't claim to be one. ( I failed to add that I consider all those "civilians" at the beach on warm sunny days very annoying, and try to avoid talking to them at any cost. Sort of like people sitting next to me on an airplane. Start talking to one, and before you know it they are telling you their life story. Very annoying when I could be looking out the window. But then people tell me I am an introvert.) Anyway, I never know what to say when they ask "Is that hard?" If I tell them the truth, they will never take up windsurfing. If I lie, then, well its a moral dilemma.
Randy
What happens in a black hole stays in a black hole.
Peelskid- it would help if your - er, excuse me, - "someone's" posts weren't 2 minutes apart when they try to stir the pot
wow, I get up this am to find I've been called a what? this is not a boring forum. the faint of heart should post elsewhere. saw a guy using a tie-on boom last year at Cape SanBlas. He was having a blast. Its more about being there than your equipment, however when there is no wind we do tend to talk more about equipment.
linda
Linda,
No disrespect intended. I only said that we were treading that dangerous zone where we sound like old goats (is that a better word? If the other offends you, I'll remove it.). Then again, if this forum is too hot, then a sport where you have to wear a bathing suit or those flattering too tight wetsuits and fall in the water repeatedly in front of total strangers only to clamber on a piece of floating plastic may not be your cup of tea, either. Windsurfing is not a sport for those that don't suffer public humiliation well.
Personally, the less I sail, the more junk I buy. My wife bought me my first clamp-on boom. I was having a blast with the tie-on but she got tired of waiting for me to rig and derig the tie-on.
no apology needed webguy, the hotter the better, that's why people read it..linda
Wow - I knew it was coming , but I am still surprised at the intensity and quantity. I see from your post, William, that you perceive me as a nostalgic old fart who is against wide boards and large sails & the people who use them. Hey, whatevever your experience of the sport is and whatever equipment you choose to use, if it makes you happy then I think that's good thing. I actually think that the new equipment is cool, even though I don't feel the need to go that way myself. All I 'm really trying to say here, is that there may be other ways of perceiving and enjoying this sport than your own. I guess that my perspective is pretty much of a minority opinion these days, but I suspect that there are a few others who may share some of my point of view. For all who do, or might, I would suggest that you might not want to be so quick to invalidate other's experiences and pleasures in this sport.
"and especially those who feel that meter wide shortboards and 10 meter sails are the answer"
umm.. I'm the guy with the wide board and 10.8. I presume that offers me the chance to respond?
"It seems to me that the advent of higher performance gear, which was absolutely a good thing, engendered a narrowing of our vision about the sport, to the detriment of it's general popularity."
I'm not invalidating anyone's experiences. I'm only pointing out what seems like the good ol' days, in my opinion, left a lot to be desired. I've had plenty of groovy times at 2 mph myself. But I reject the contention that it was _all_ good in the 80s. My plastic longboard, literally, strained my back- I missed 2 days of work at a desk job after one weekend. My rig was crap. And most of those folks, for whatever reason, that tried it or did it then, don't now. Did I have good times then? Sure. But I'm really glad that I didn't have to teach my kids on equipment as it existed circa 1986. We have to be brutally honest with ourselves.
One, the sport suffered, like many sports, from a boom-bust cycle. All those boards were being sold at an unsustainable rate to folks who then would go on to try inline-skating, mtn biking, kayaking, extreme racing, and the next sport du jour.
Two, for whatever reason, a whole lot of folks who windsurfed or tried windsurfing then, don't now - the sport failed them. Whatever good times were to be had, wasn't good enough. You and I had fun. A lot of folks didn't. We have to own up to that. Many weren't destined to be in the sport anyway. But a lot were absolutely shattered by the difficulties from the equipment as it then existed - tippy boards and rigs that weighed too much. Hi- wind equipment came about because windsurfers wanted it. The Windsurfer company went bust because windsurfers didn't want that. Popularity is about people making choices. The windsurfing public in the late 80s told the world and the industry they wanted more hi-wind equipment and less lo-wind equipment. Today, as I asserted, we still make the same choices. We aren't telling anyone how to have fun on a windsurfer but take a headcount at Van Pugh on a windy vs. non-windy day. We all are telling the world what we prefer. If I were in the business of building boards, I'd have to be a bit silly to look at an empty parking lot and say, "ah, there's an opportunity."
Again, with my utmost respect to you and your opinions (which is how I prefaced my comments), we older folks need to recognize that it may well be that the younger generation wants something different from windsurfing. Kids have different options and tastes. The sport isn't dying at all- participation in my family is up 300% in recent years. It just maybe isn't the same sport we grew up on.
To talk about in glowing terms what a wonderful time we had in the old days in ways that aren't appreciated any more, sorry, really does date us in the eyes of younger folk. It's the equivalent of spinning Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd or George Clinton in our younger days and having had someone say that it paled compared to the Tommy Dorsey Band or Bill Haley.
Your assertion was the sport peaked in popularity in the 80s and the narrower focus caused it to fall from popularity. I'll agree with the first point. I'll disagree with the second. I'll honor your experiences and buy you a beer the next time we see each other at the Brandy House.
OK y'all.
The answer is simple, as per the Pontiac Ads few years ago "wider is better".
Marek
hey free beer, I think you're on to something.
I'm not sure that pouring some beer on this argument is going to make anything better. Could end up in a bar fight.....
What happens in a black hole stays in a black hole.
Whatever.
Compare this sport to surfing. Right now you can't get on a wave on the west coast the lineups are full and you get get in a fight if you drop in at the wrong time or the wrong place. But before it became a part of the xtreme sport it wasn't that way. I too recall back in the day when I purchased my first windsurfing gear at the Atlanta Boat Show. There were two dealers there selling gear next to the sailboats. I was the only guy in the entire state of Alabama (excluding Mobile area) that I know of that had one of these things. Most folks thought it was a canoe. It was a skinny Klepper longboard with about 100 straps on it, I thought they were carrying handles. The sail was a 6.5 Ezzy (I think) and had a tie on boom with a one-piece fiberglass mast. At their suggestion I even bought a dry suit. It was two-piece suit that had extra long flaps that you rolled up and then put your cummerbun over it. I paid $1200.00 for the whole kit. Here it is 2004 and you can basically get the whole rig at the same price now, thats inflation.
With gas prices on the rise the way I see it once you get your gear you can sail all you want and it doesn't cost a dime. Take a jet ski out for a day, or go wakeboarding and you'll burn $100.00 in a day. Add all that up and include the gear and the boat or ski and itfar cheaper than most sports I have participated in.
In Europe the sport is really alive. Most schools there have windsurfing in thier curriculum especially France, where there are over 1 million Windsurfers. Chris don't get me wrong, I enjoy all aspects of the sport. I was probably one of the guys they were talking about at Gaults just cruising around. I enjoy just being on the water, whether its on my 10.5 or 4.2 although I prefer the 5.2 and 90l board.
I think Kiteboarding has taken a little gas out of this sport and like Robby Naish said most of the kiters are coming back to windsurfing as they have run out of stuff to do while dangling in the air.
Well I'm off to Maui I'll let you guys know how it is.
Plop
Danny Johnson
wide long skinny short- how about a reliable forcast?!
Some of you may be wondering where the local/regional dealer has been in all this discussion about a "dying sport". I've been reading all this and had about a thousand things to say, but I feel reluctant to show up on this forum. I used to be a lot wittier and funnier when I had more time. Right now I'm just too tired. Doing a 6 hour lesson -- my 5th lesson day of the season so far -- for 6 people last Saturday -- which means a 10 hour day, even with Chris Campbell's help (forgive us -- we used a jetski!) on the heels of a trip to downtown Atl. and Cumming (from Augusta) two days before that with $6,300 worth of --gasp! -- NEW gear to deliver and rig up with folks*, then returning to a day's worth of yet-to-be-addressed legitimate windsurfing business e-mails -- 18 in this case -- oh, wait, did I say those 6 people all drove from 2 to almost 4 hours to get here at my lake to do a lesson at $95 apiece? -- and then I was backed up, too, from my own (selfish) sailing at St Simons Island over the Memorial Day weekend with the SSI Surf Sailers. They have expanded the windsurfing storage faciities there 3 (three!!) times in the last 2 years to accommodate the growth. Oh, there is one guy there who kiteboards -- rather poorly. (But I guess that compares to the long-running windsurf business mentioned in last issue of Windsurfing Magazine in Atlantic City Maryland that increased their windsurfing-only rental and lesson business 16% last year)...but, where was I?...heck, doesn't matter, Mr Webguy and PLOP made all my good points very eloquently...except one: Windsurfing doesn't grow around here and across the country due to a lack of availability of ENOUGH organized, on-going instruction. I mean, beginner-level, professional quality instruction, including follow-up hands-on support to the stoked newbie. I need an instructor -- or two or three! I could keep him/her busy.
(* Yes, I know it's nuts, but some people buy quality, current gear -- brand new -- and don't even think it's very expensive.)
And, btw, at the N. Sports dealer meeting last Oct they told 50 dealers from across the country that kiteboarding sales have already passed it's peak and headed down and the future was very much about marketing the more-realistic greater accessability of windsurfing. )