I am looking to upgrade from the Starboard Start (225L 110cm width) this fall and am considering two options:
200L+ beginner board with a more aggressive shape (i.e. Exocet Nano, Fanatic Viper, Starboard Rio, Bic Techno 293, Kona Hula, etc).
Or
Midsize beginner/freeride board ( Starboard Go 175 WS or Bic Techno 160D).
I want to retain the daggerboard as I see it being useful in light wind days and sharing with others. I have been WS since March with about 15 sessions under my belt. The start was great to learn on but is a little slow with the 110 cm width. I am now using the harness and in the straps and plane occasionally which is usually limited by my sail size/wind.
Will I be better off with a smaller shape or are big boards a safe bet? I am 6'0" tall and 215lbs. I have found a good deal on gently used models of both sizes of boards.
No shortage of advice around here...
First, I've never sailed your version of the Start as mine is 100 cm wide. imho, what makes yours slow is not the width but length. You are spending almost all your time sub-planing, ie displacement mode. Anything 270-300ish is going to be fairly slow compared to longer boards. In displacement mode, water length is king.
With the appropriate sail and fin that get you on top of the water, I imagine it is plenty fast for your needs for the next year or longer. I sailed my Start in planing conditions with everything from a 9.0 down to a 6.5 on a 65cm fin. It was plenty fast with the appropriate rig for the conditions. The extra 10cm of width won't slow you down appreciably in those conditions. Randy has a 1 gen Start like mine and does fine in light air, too.
I looked at all the boards you listed but I might group the boards differently. Also, some of the boards come in different sizes so it's important to specify which model (e.g Nano, Viper)
The way I see things is that you have the Nano and Hula as "school" boards, and the Viper and Bics as what we used to call transitional boards - shortboards with a centerboard. My first impression is that the school boards will be rehashing what you already have. And, as newer boards, probably pretty pricey.
The Bics, Rio and Fanatic are basically light air boards with a bias to non-planing conditions. The Bics really only differ in volume, not purpose. Even though they will perform adequately in planing mode, they will be heavier, a bit more complicated and a touch slower due to the centerboard and the slot in the bottom of the board. This may be what you want but in my limited experience, they don't quite light up like a pure shortboard, even a big one, will. If you really will spend a lot of time in non-planing conditions, undoubtedly the centerboard is worthwhile. If the reason you are standing on the board is the chance, no matter how remote, you might plane, maybe not so much.
imho, the Go is the only true big shortboard in your list, that with appropriate fins and sails, and most likely will be sailable at your level and still give an exciting ride as your skills mature. Short boards without a centerfin or centerboard can go upwind, it just take a lot longer. Many of us have sailed fairly far upwind from Van Pugh on shortboards in non-planing conditions either out of boredom or when we think the wind will be stronger up by Lake Lanier Islands. It's embarrassingly slow compared to a true longboard like CV has, but it can be done.
Regulatory disclaimer: I own two beginner boards, a 1st gen Start (290x100cm) and a Bic Nova 240D (approx 310x82). The Start is more fun planing and the Nova when needing the centerboard. I've sailed both with big sails and fins.
Financial disclaimer: I'm thinking about selling the Nova. It doesn't really get used now that the kids are grown.
I'm smaller than you so I can only tell you by observation that guys your size tend to find it easier to float on anything from 160-200 liters. As or more important is the width. I would hesitate to get anything narrower than 80-83 cm. Anything narrower will take more wind to plane and be less stable in non-planing conditions. Stephan, who is roughly your size, has a FreeFormula 198 which is basically a really big Go and can light it up with a big rig. Prior to that board he had a Go 170 which was fine but I think he finds the stability and light air performance of the198 better yet still manageable as the wind approaches 20mph. I hope he chimes in with his experiences. I've sailed my FF157 (83cm wide) up in the upper 20s with a 7.5 and 6.5. I don't think you'll be hindered at all where you are by choosing a wide board with or without a centerboard..
I've alluded to it before but, for your size and the conditions we've had since last spring, you are pretty underpowered if planing is your objective. We all have that limit of the biggest sail we are willing to go based on budget and the hassle of a big rig. I'm a smaller guy and my bread and butter sail from May to September is a 9.5. A 9.5 (or bigger) may not be your cup of tea, but the point is that in enough wind, power and some experience, what any board feels like will change; and your preferences may change, too.
Hope that helps. The board that better fits your needs depends on where you sail, how aggressive you want to be in pushing your learning curve, your budget and the type of windsurfing you imagine doing. There are no "dogs" in your list or in what you already own.
Good luck.
I bow to webguy's depth of knowledge in these matters. fwiw, I think you should cajole him into selling you that Nova 240D. I taught a few lessons with that board AND put a biggish sail on it in a breeze and had a really swell time– planing and everything, (though the stock fin was pretty lame for those days). Add a nice, big fin and you'll be geared up for a while.
I'm a dinosaur when it comes to gear, but here's what I have and why I have it:
Mistral Equipe- old school race board. I race and travel to race, and this works in the greatest variety of conditions– very light wind to over 25 mph. If I didn't race, something like it might still be my light wind choice. I really like the gliding sensation that you get with long, narrow boards. (I'm even slightly tempted to revisit the Serenity that Radny has for sale... talk about a sweet ride! Only problem with it is I've got no place to store a frickin' 14 ft board). Equipe works with 9.5 sail in light to whitecapping wind and a 7.5 up to ~20-25mph wind. Normal people prefer something thick and floaty or Formula-esque for their light wind ride.
Floaty slalom board. For me it's a 20 year old Mistral Explosion. 120 liters and ridiculously skinny by today's standards. Narrow = fast and that's the most fun for me. I know there are many, more modern, "better" choices in this class, but this old stick still works. 6.5 sail has the most mileage and grins with this board. 5.5 is hilariously fun. There are lots of really good used boards this size to be had.
My small board is big by many standards- 98 liters. In a pinch I can uphaul and get home just about any time. 4.5 sail and smaller. For the Gorge dogs and elsewhere, this is where windsurfing really starts. For inland lake sailors it's kind of a different genre– big chop for trying big jumps and surviving while jibing.
I hope you stay with it Micah. It's pretty rare to find people who learned to sail here and still have a passion for it.
My apologies - in an attempt at brevity, I omitted a bunch of words that support Chris. If you really want to go in light air, I agree with him: bide your time and track down a classic longboard: Mistral One Design (IMCO), Original Superlight or variations of the Equipe (I, II and its portly twin, the Superlight II) or similar boards from Fanatic or F2. These boards are 370+ cm long plus their centerboards are much bigger and more powerful than the "transitionals". The boards on your list "kind of" go upwind in 5-10 compared to longboards which go upwind like a scalded dog. (No animals were harmed in the making of this simile.)
A drawback is that for people who've learned on wide boards, it's a bit disconcerting that these giant 230-250 liter boards are less stable, being between 65-69cm wide. Chris is a pretty big guy and he does fine (understatement), but he also does fine (again, understatement) on his Explosion which is anorexic by modern standards. It is what it is - just wouldn't want you to plunk money down and then get frustrated that it's more tippy than you might be used to. These are the boards that everyone learned on until the late 90s so it's doable with a bit of patience and enthusiasm. I own an Equipe II (yeah, I've got a lot of crap) and I dig how it goes upwind on its rail.
And just to confuse things - quite often, old transitional boards* pop up on Craigs List for the price of a new Chinook extension if you need a centerboard for that once in a while thing. They aren't as floaty, wide or fast upwind but may be a cheap way to satisfy the summertime jones to get on the water and goof around. Chris Pyron digs his old Mistral Malibu for that reason; he's about my size and prefers smaller sails.
*this and any other reference to classic equipment assumes you are looking at the good stuff from Mistral, F2, Fanatic and, maybe, Bic. Most of the stuff on Craigs List needs to go to the landfill for the benefit of the sport.
Chris, now you are making me sad about putting the Nova out to pasture.
Sorry to open the tap on you, Micah. No "wrong" choices, just variations on a theme.
Two cents from advancing beginner.
First of all, DO NOT BUY another beginner board, you already have one.
Your speed is limited by the sail size. What is you biggest sail? Taking into account your size and local wind conditions, your primary sail is going to be 8.5 or 9.0 regardless of the board you will use. So spend some money on a good mast and a sail first, move foot straps to the back and you will have a lot of fun in upcoming season. Learn how to go upwind without daggerboard, and then buy a true freeride board.
My biggest sail is a 7.5. I do plan to buy a more modern 8.5 in the near future that will rig on my 460 mast.
This second driver to this is that my Start is literally falling apart and seams a lot heavier than it should be. Traction is coming off, sandwich construction is delaminating, etc. It had a lot of miles on it when I got it. I have repaired all the dings with poly but it still may be taking on water somewhere.
I have also thought about going down to rent from Tihno for a day and trying out some different boards to see what I like. It might be worth the investment.
Thanks for the advice!
KONA STEP ONE
http://www.isthmussailboards.com/Kona-Step-One-220/productinfo/AE14-60097/
Mike Prazak
I should add the Starboard Atom IQ 160 to the mix.
Good idea. Sorry, I was too cheap to consider a Kona as an option, and it is a good option. If you have the funds and want to go in this direction, check with Gene at Windsense and see if there are still any Konas from this past year's Worlds in the Keys available. They were doing a big blowout of gear that was barely used. If you really have the funds - I love spending other people's money - look into a Kona with the 9.0 rig. There is a 9.8 as well but if you decide to race Kona, you might not be heavy enough to use it. http://www.konaone.com/the-boards/one-design-sails/
Micah, didn't realize that your Start had "issues". btw, poly (I'm assuming polyester resin) is not a good repair material for windsurfers. Epoxy is recommended for a) strength and b) the fact that polyester will literally eat up some of the foam cores used in windsurfers. See "Eva the Board Lady" http://www.boardlady.com/ for everything you need to know about repairing boards. Odds are, this won't be the last board you have to repair. It happens... Look through the site as she talks about water in boards, how to repair, etc. She's really an accomplished person, see her "Ancient History".
Also, if your 7.5 is of "keeper" quality, you probably want to go bigger than an 8.5 for your next sail. It's easy to go up 1.5 to 2.5 meters in the big stuff. Both Chris and I go 9.5 to 7.5. When I go to Hatteras and want to rig less gear, I'll go 9.5 to 7.0 freeride. You don't have to go that big but 7.5/8.5 is a pretty close overlap.
Not really crazy about this one for where you are on the curve. Carves or Go will be much more useful for you, imho, and their website agrees with me. The Carves and Go are ranked much higher for User Friendliness and the Go for comfort. http://www.star-board-windsurfing.com/2015/products/boards/go#overviewThe Atom is more maneuver oriented and I don't think you'll be able to appreciate that for a while. The Atom looks like a board that's meant to be sailed way powered up and then set very hard on it's rail. Think "screaming jibe in 3 ft swell with a 7.5 when it's blowing 25 ish."
Hey Micah,
I'd say first figure out if your Start is leaking or not, or if its really falling apart or you are just mad at it. (I've been there lots of times.) You can find if its leaking by weighing it, assuming there is not an obvious leak. Step on a bathroom scale and weigh yourself, then pick up the board (once its dry) and weigh again. If the boards add more than 40 pounds its probably leaking for sure. You can find the manufacturers weight by looking in the archive on the Starboard web page - though Starboard is notorious for lying about specs - so don't take them too seriously. Boardlady.com has lots of info on water in your board and how to detect it - if you can't tell from weighing it. Also she tells how to fix it - as much as it can be fixed. Now, if your board has soft spots, or other serious damage then that should be clear cut as well too. Check the centerboard well, and around the footstaps attachments and fin box looking for leaks. Also open the valve and put a tissue paper or paper towel in the hole and see if water wicks up or not.
Assuming the board is actually ok, then get a bigger sail like Ed says and a longer fin if you don't have one. That's where I'd start. The bigger sail (and most likely the fin) will be useful for subsequent boards as well.
Aside from that if your board is compromised then the Bic mentioned by William is an upgrade and you might check out the longboard thread as well. A longboard will be faster than your Start in the 80% of the days when there is not enough wind to plane, and even on some days when you can. I have a Start and love it, so I'm not down on them at all. They are great for light wind planing, for light wind subplaning - not so much.
What happens in a black hole stays in a black hole.
Kona One is a good idea. Good to learn on and all the longbored benefits... and there's a Kona cult
This thread is a good one, and brings up some thoughts that I ruminate on periodically. You seem pretty passionate to pursue this sport, and I wouldn't want to discourage you _but_, if you have already come to the conclusion, as so many others have, that the only fun to be had in windsurfing requires planing speeds, then unless you have complete freedom of your time, substantial $ for gear/trips and such, and a willingness to get out on the water when air and water temps are in the 40s - then you are likely to experience a lot of disappointment and frustration, which is why I think so few people do windsurfing anymore. I hope you stick with it - we're rooting for you.
On the subject of gear, unless your Start is beyond hope, then you already have a board that should do, I would assume, for full planing conditions, not that you couldn't enjoy something slightly smaller. To get the most fun on the most days, as well as to progress as rapidly as you can I would highly recommend getting a real longboard, as webguy has spoken of some choices above. If you can find/afford a Kona, they seem good to me, or you can look for something used and probably inexpensive. New or used, they are a completely different critter from what you have now and have their own learning curve. At your size I would definitely recommend the full size models as opposed to "transitional boards".
Sail size - most folks I know will have some limit to how big a rig they're willing to sail. Webguy goes 9.5, Barrett,8.5 & so on. In South Florida, 12.5s are very common among Formula Guys. Makes some sense where winds are often light but way more consistent than here. For myself, I seldom use anything bigger than 6.0 and I probably weigh about the same as Webguy. I sail a lot, and I always have fun, cause when a 100L shortboard would not be fast or fun, I have my longboards.
By the by, I have a used 8.5, pretty nice sail I think, never used it, will rig on a 460. If you can use it, you can have it.
Bottom line - get out and have fun, whatever the conditions.
Thanks. Looks like I need to increase my sail quiver before figuring out what board I will want to move to.
How did I end up windsurfing...I got bored with SUPing, attempted to learn to surf and spent a lot of time in cold water on the coast progressing - think every other weekend for a while. I became a new dad and that kinda halted that pursuit. So windsurfing locally was a natural choice to feed my gravitation toward the water with something that was feasible in small time allotments on weekends or after work. I have thoroughly enjoyed being out WS every time other than when the wind is absolutely non-cooperative. For me, cruising and planing are each fun in their own way, the in-between times...not so much...but everything is a learning opportunity.
Cold water doesn't bother me with the right gear. Living and working near the lake helps me out too.
Someone once asked why would anyone want to own a sailboat on a lake. The response..."because when they go to the ocean on a beautiful day they don't want to be the guy on the shore saying I wish I knew how to do that." I guess its the same for me and WS.
+1
Quote of the Day
I am the guy on the shore at the ocean looking at the waves and saying "I wish I had the cajones to sail in that." (So I sail in knee deep water in the sound.)
What happens in a black hole stays in a black hole.
MIssed that there's a version that has a centerboard. Was that the one you were looking at?
Another Quote.
“…unless you have complete freedom of your time…then you are likely to experience a lot of disappointment and frustration…”
How true, sigh...
Bill Herderich
Yes, that's the one.
How do I put this... Okay, this board has me "perplexed".
Practically, I just don't see a 257 cm board "gliding", centerboard or no centerboard - and its centerboard is pretty small to begin with. Glide comes from length. Randy's Serenity glides like crazy with just a fin - because it's 14 feet long.
The cynical, tin-foil hat part of me thinks that dealers keep telling Starboard to make a board they can sell to rookies who want a "real" board but don't trust themselves to sail without a centerboard in non-planing conditions.
It's 28 lbs which will piss you off eventually when it's windy. It's short, round and has a small centerboard so that everyone who has a $200, 15 yr old Mistral Superlight II or 20 yr old IMCO will blow your doors off going upwind when the wind is 5-15. Your family that wants to learn on it will be pissed tripping all over your foot straps.
Maybe Starboard go this one right but manufacturers have been trying to get this right for 20 -30 years: a performance short board aimed towards beginners that behaves like an okay long board. I can't tell you to spend $1500 on the chance this time it's different.
Sorry, I'm in a cranky mood today.
edit: PS. if anyone disagrees with me, I'm open to arguments to the contrary.
I like this one
http://www.isthmussailboards.com/2015-Starboard-GO-Windsurfer/productinfo/SB15GOW/
BTW...My Start is the 2004 L. Doesn't seem that long vs. volume.
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